.....
I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.

1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs.
.....

Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:

• Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.


• We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.


• Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.

I will change the OP to match the changes.

webs are good @ incursions, they help aloooot

all marauder's need is dps buff to justify their training and cost, and maybe MJD that can be used even when scrammed

BANG and you'd have null full of fun pvp again and small bs gangs.

NO!

1. it's vindis
2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.

+2 str is just too OP.


lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it.

Mjd's aren't immune to scrams, they are immune to long points (Sorry if i'm missing something from an earlier arguement)

Also anyone who thinks these won't be used in pvp because the blobby nature in eve will make them impractical from soloing is awful.

A battleship with t2 resistances that gets a bonus to MJD's will become the go to fleet ship of any alliance with any amount of isk between their hands. Should rather try to expand on the MJD thing somehow rather than giving them t2 resists.. its just unimaginative and bad.

Give them the ability to use target spectrum breakers without harsh penalties or something. Just.. anything other than this.

Web bonus for golem is a joke since the ship will never get in range to web anything kinda like the curent paladin.Give it another bonus any bonus just not web

THESE STILL SUCK.

T2 resists = terrific. MJD = awesome.
Other than that, everything else is still a mixed bag of snakes.

In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/

Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.

1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them.
2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.

Essentially there are far more people selling these things than there are people attempting to buy them, and if you click over on the price tab the price has been dropping since they were released too but the slowness of the drop further suggests very little movement in the markets, with people gradually lowering prices to try to move product rather than the rapid approaching of base costs you get for most T1 modules.

Rather amusingly I could actually make at least the X-Large variant 'profitably' and I'm by no means an industrialist beyond the skills I got from the old character creation system. Profitably in quotes there because I rather doubt I'd be able to actually sell the things.

So, yeah, overall I would say we won't be looking at an infestation of Ancillary Shield Booster fit ships any time soon. It probably deserves a second look but I just don't see it being a major issue even with Marauders unless they seriously screw up the bonuses on these things.

5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level

There are certainly other available explanations, though I feel the idea that these modules are suffering from an over-stock that's managed to persist for over a year since their inception only supports my idea more strongly, since for that to occur you'd have to have almost none of the modules being bought and used.

I actually considered the use-case where the modules weren't selling simply because the ships weren't dying and I find it highly unrealistic.

Overall local tank gets beaten by Logi and people tend to fly solo ships until they die, plus we've already established that only a fraction of hulls can actually fit a dual ASB tank and those that can only fit a single ASB are at something of a disadvantage in a protracted fight even against a single opponent.

Plus if the modules were really that good and that popular then you'd actually see more of them getting destroyed since it would be ASB fit vs ASB fit, which would increase demand since someone in that fight is going to lose.

Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.

If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Some of this is inaccurate though. The MJD does not place you at your destination at 100% speed it places you there at whatever speed you were at when the jump occurred.

Also there is no difference in align time to any point if you are moving at 0 meters per second. This can be easily confirmed by jumping through a gate and then aligning in a random direction and timing the warp with a stop watch. Variance of ~1 second is expected due to server ticks and communication lag.

Ah, okay, I thought there was a disconnect here. I thought you meant that the module left you at 100% speed.

Also you can't align while your speed is set to 0 m/s. Besides which the facing of your ship does not impact align speed unless your ship is moving.

Therefore the MJD doesn't impact the time it takes you to get into warp, it just allows you to potentially escape a bubble if the people trying to hold you down didn't bring a Warp Scrambler.

Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:

• Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
• Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus

We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.

You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.

as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps.

As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.

Never did I stated that marauders should out dps pirate ships I just stated that arty are bad and cant brake certain dps margain like other MARAUDERS do while still have worst tracking,dps,range then any of them...it is not like they have worse tracking than tachs but better dmg than rails NO that are worse in everything compared to anything.

lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc

Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...

If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.

[quote=stoicfaux][quote=Mer88]
unless you can tell me that you can do full damage on a BS traveling at 275m/s consistently i think still have to say cruise missiles range is not as good as everyone thinks.

Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.

I find it hard not to agree with.

the mobile structure tractor is too slow. i wouldnt mind making it faster so you can use 3 salagers .

you have to remember the structure doesnt care what it tractors in, even useless small wrecks so unlike marauder you cant pick and choose which wrecks to bring in . also, isnt 100m3 volume a bit too much? i barely have room to loot in a marauder i cant imgine with only 600m3 in a t1

heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser.

if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry

ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.

so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?

I did not lie about the data, but i think they turned off the mwd so they were decelerating so the 500% sig boom was gone.

There are no dev responses in this thread to read on the subject of Maurader/RHML

If I missed that can you supply #number so I can see please.

If you have something useful to add don't be shy.

If you have nothing to add why bother convoluting the thread ?

Making incorrect assumptions and statements as to what I may or may not have done isnt very constuctive is it !
But then some people just like to jump up and down and wave there arms around for attention don't they.

Maybe for the same reason the other marauders still get their damage or damage application bonus?

I don't know what your saying there.

Making RHML bonused would not make the golem op in the same way that bonusing Dual 250mm Rails won't make a kronos op.

It's just a choice you make when doing your fittings.
Better v big stuff or better v fast stuff.

The RHML is to Cruise launchers what the Dual 250 is to 425mm

Its just the weaker launcher thats easier to fit and is better at hitting fast stuff at the expense of dps.
Thats why it needs to have its bonuses otherwise useless.

yes and no really.... TP is only useful if you can target a ship, and if that ship is immune to e-war or not.. seems a bit silly for an e-war immune ships (bastion mode) to get a bonus to an e-war mod..
Also if uses up a mid slot which reduces options... also since the rest don't have bonuses to Tracking computers golem shoudn't have one for TP's.

Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn

Does anyone have the MJD skill at 5 and a marauder to put it on? If so, could you get on Sisi and tell me what your reactivation timer is?

So you're saying you have no case?

I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted.
If nothing else, the 1200mm's could maybe use a bit faster rof.

Some players always mention isk/hr, but when they do, they're speaking in specific terms of completion times and they never factor comsumable(ammo/cap boosters/etc.etc.) and fitting costs into this.

Yes a;; times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used.

Excelent, do you want to buy my LP from me? I'll sell it for 1500/lp

People do it all the time. You tell me what to buy form the LP store, I contract them to you for the agreed price, bam lp sold.

What do you get for your LP anyways?

Although on the other hand discussing Mission blitzing/LP farming has zero place in a marauder rebalanced thread. If you lp farm then you are sure as hell not running a marauder. A Pirate BS is far better at it, as it should be.

So what you are saying is that LP income is variable too? Just like salvage and loot?

Interesting.

Also on many missions in my DATA salvage/loot accounts for well over half my income for that mission. You will also note that in my data I did not bother salvaging the one mission (and will only blitz drone missions from now on eww) so yeas there is merit to that but so many missions have so much isk in the form of salvage and loot and the best part is I skip the whole traveling bit that is part of blitzing missions. Basically say you have an hour right. Travel time is say 5 min per mission. If you can do 4 missions in that hour and I only do 2 you wasted 20min on travel and I only spent 10min on travel. I spent more time making money you spent more time traveling around not making money.

At least thats my theory.

I'll add a few things to what Dav said ...

It would make sense to refer to the Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher thread if things were consistent. But they are not. Let me point a few things out that might help you see why we want a specific notice in _this_ thread.

RHML is less powerful to start with than either Torp or Cruise.
It needs the same bonusing on the hull to keep it's power in ratio with other BS launchers.
Otherwise its not an option and Sandbox means options.

Kronos flyer would be rightly miffed if 350's and D250's did not get bonused removing choice.

Yes

Golem -

High -
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise
....
- Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Drone -
- Warrior x5
- Hammerhead x5

Better

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.